Tanya Hale 00:00 

Hey there, welcome to Intentional Living with Tanya Hale. This is episode number 345, "Men's Sexuality and Intimacy" with Sione. Welcome to your place for finding greater happiness through intentional growth, because we don't just fall into the life of our dreams...we choose to create it. Alright, hey there, welcome to the podcast today. This is Tanya, I am so glad to have you here. Just right before we get started, if you are interested in the Talk with Tanya, the next one of those is February 11th. You can go to my group coaching tab at tanyahale.com and you can sign up for that and you'll get the link for it. Just can't wait to see you there. It's just a great time to just chat about anything that you wanna talk about: any problems you have, any questions you have. You can ask me anything about my life, my divorce, my remarriage, all that kind of stuff. We can just have a great chat. 

Tanya Hale 00:59 

Also, I'm gonna be starting some sense of self classes in March, so keep your eyes open for that. If you want to make sure that you don't miss those, you're gonna wanna go to my website as well, tanyahale.com and you can get signed up for my "weekend win." That's just a quick email that comes out every week with some great information to share with you. And that's gonna do it. 

Tanya Hale 01:20 

So today, we are talking about men's sexuality and intimacy with Sione, the man of the hour. How you doing, babe? 

Sione 01:28 

We're gonna talk for a whole hour? 

Tanya Hale 01:30 

A whole hour. Not an hour probably. That would be way too long for everybody. It's a lot of time to talk about sexuality and intimacy probably. So as I've been doing this work, I've realized that we've talked a lot about women's sexuality and I've shared with you some ideas from my experiences of how I grew up and how my ideas about sex impacted my sex life in my previous marriage, how I had to do some work around this. And as Sione and I have been chatting about this, we were talking about how he had to have a shift in his ideas about sexuality as well and how those have impacted him and how those have impacted our marriage and how his previous ideas about sexuality impacted his previous marriage. So I asked him if he'd be willing to come on and chat and guess what he said? 

Sione 02:27 

'Yes.' No, I probably said, 'of course,' or 'yeah, probably,' but probably just said 'yes.' 

Tanya Hale 02:33 

But we've had it on the docket for a few weeks and we've had conversations driving in the car talking about what we would want to discuss and so here we go. 

Sione 02:41 

Well, just in full disclosure, I am not a men's sexual health expert. So even though I'm a doctor, don't confuse this as medical advice.I'm a gynecologist, so I know a lot more about women's sexuality as an academic exercise than I do about men's sexuality as an academic exercise. This is just my experience and my thoughts. 

Tanya Hale 03:02 

Yeah. And I think that's a really good clarification. Like, this is this is from Sione's point of view and this is his experience going into it. So this isn't going to encompass all men. But for the men out there who are listening, ideas to consider. Just as my sexual experiences as I put them on the podcast do not exemplify every woman out there, neither do his exemplify every man. And so just want to put that out there, but some food for thought and something to think about. And hopefully if you're a woman listening to this, this will open up some conversations with your spouse, if this is an area that you want to talk more about your sexuality with him and how it works and what goes on. I think that's the biggest thing that I hope that this  happens. And I think Sione as well, is that this creates a space of conversation where you can discuss things that maybe you haven't discussed in your marriage before. So. 

Sione 03:52 

Since you've all been practicing that safe space for your spouse, now you get a chance to really see how safe you can make it. 

Tanya Hale 04:01 

Right. Good, good point, Yeah. We've been talking about safe spaces the last few weeks, so look at him listening to the podcast. I know. Okay, so we're going to talk, I would like you first of all, Sione, to talk a little bit about the culturalization when you're a young boy and a teenager and a young man around sexuality and intimacy and the kind of ideas that you came to understand that you took into the beginning of your first marriage. 

Sione 04:34 

Yeah, so it was all about the orgasm, right? So reaching that pinnacle of pleasure, and men are not immune from Hollywood and the stereotypes either. So we are also taught that within two to three minutes of initiating sex, women are warmed up and ready to go. And then as soon as you start having sex, they cannot control themselves. And orgasm within a couple of minutes of penetration. And so suddenly, and then you reach orgasm at the same time and music starts playing in both of your heads and voila, it's the world's perfect sexual experience. And that's kind of how my idealistic pie in the sky, is that the right phrase, pie in the sky? I don't know. So how my idealistic self-thought that sexuality should be if things were working great with our marriage. So again, reaching orgasm for both of us was kind of what I learned from Hollywood. And I was in the era also where our parents did not talk about sexuality with us. They didn't show, my parents didn't show a lot of physical affection toward each other in front of us kids. And so it wasn't something that we talked about in families. 

Tanya Hale 06:07 

Yeah, so we were all very uneducated, bumbling around, following what we saw in Hollywood, and that's not a good recipe for a healthy sexual relationship in a marriage. 

Sione 06:16 

It's a good recipe for box office sales, but not for marriages. 

Tanya Hale 06:22 

So how did that impact your marriage, your previous marriage? 

Sione 06:26 

So hopefully I won't share anything that offends anybody, including my ex-spouse, but I just always felt like something was missing because that didn't happen. And I know you're all shocked that that Hollywood thing didn't happen when the cameras weren't rolling. And so sex was always a bit of a challenge. So my brain thought, because I'm a fixer, that if I just figured out this sex thing, that everything would be better. That all of our problems were because we hadn't figured out the sex thing yet. So if I could just find that right move or that right position or that right warm up or something, that it would just solve all of our problems. And then, so my quest, my goal in life, was to figure out what we were missing sexuality-wise. And that would be the answer to our problems. 

Tanya Hale 07:27 

Isn't it interesting that I think the socialization for men is that sex will solve all the problems and the social ideas around sex for women are that more emotional connection will solve all the problems. 

Sione 07:43 

Yeah, right. If we just were better lovers, you guys would... 

Tanya Hale 07:47 

Yeah. If we have enough sex and it's good enough quality, that will solve every other problem in the marriage, which is what I hear you saying about men's kind of ideas. 

Sione 07:58 

Right. And quality is highly variable in how we define that. So Hollywood defines it as the world's greatest orgasm, right? 

Tanya Hale 08:06 

Yeah. 

Sione 08:07 

But as we will see later on, that's not necessarily what makes for good sex. 

Tanya Hale 08:12 

Yeah, yeah, I just think it's fascinating that men and women see the solidification of a relationship landing in such different places. 

Sione 08:23 

Well, and in my previous marriage, we went to a lot of therapy, so I think total number of years were 13 years of different types of therapy and different therapists. And it was interesting how, now that you mentioned this, how my conversations with the therapists were always, 'I think it's about the sex,' and my ex's conversations were always, 'I think it's about the communication.' And so, that we were just playing into the stereotypes. Well, that's fascinating. I never see it that way. 

Tanya Hale 08:55 

Alright, so then what else? 

Sione 08:59 

Well, so it is interesting that all that pressure to come up with the world's greatest orgasm leads to a lot of anxiety in the man. And I don't know about the woman's side, but at least for me, I felt a lot of anxiety about, 'OK, am I doing this right? Am I doing that right? Is it time to move on? Is it time to stay where I'm at? Like, what should I do?' And all of that can make the experience of sexuality all that much more nerve-wracking, whether it's, you know, whether premature ejaculation or like impotence, erectile dysfunction, all those things, all that anxiety about that sexual experience can lead to both of those happening. And and how that is really kind of the the definition of manhood, right, is how well you can control the sexual experience for both you and the woman. 

Sione 09:56 

And also, when we go on vacation, I would have very different expectations than she would have. And I was expecting these kid-free, amazing sexual experiences. And what ended up happening was both of us just being frustrated because I wanted this world's greatest orgasm that was not possible. And she wanted time alone with me to just connect, not sexually. And so we just both got frustrated because the same problems we had back home came on the airplane with us. We didn't just like become different people when we were on vacation. But I think I had the expectation that that would happen. 

Sione 10:40 

So in my quest to find the world's greatest orgasm, I had a lot of access to resources in medical school. We even went to a couple of different sex therapists and they they both told us that it wasn't about the sex, but I didn't understand that until later or I didn't believe them. I don't quite know which way it was. But the marriage was the problem, not the sex. And the sex that we were having was a symptom of the marriage, not the cause of the struggles in our marriage. Because I still thought there was something I could do or some magic, not pill to take, but magic move or magic environment or something that would make her really want to have sex with me. And turns out there was something I could do. It was creating an emotionally safe space for her. But I didn't know that at the time. 

Sione 11:44 

So, you know, I know that I put a lot of pressure on her not to say 'no.' And 'did you have an orgasm' and 'did we did it feel good?' 'Well, how was that one?' You know, a lot of, in parenting, they call it post-game analysis that you're not supposed to do with your teenager, like after a game. Like, 'how do you feel like you played? Did you kick the ball?' Well, you know, 'it looks like you almost could have scored a goal if you'd just done an extra,' you know, a lot of post-game analysis. And I did a lot of post-sex analysis, like,' was that good for you? What was your favorite part, blah, blah, blah.' And she was like, 'uh, can you please knock it off?' 

Tanya Hale 12:24 

But that makes sense that you would come from that angle if your cultural and societal belief around sex was that if the sex is good, everything else in your marriage falls into place. 

Sione 12:37 

Right. And so then trying to figure out what it was that wasn't there was difficult because I was looking for that that one  thing that I could do to change the whole experience.And it turns out there was nothing that I could do in the moment that was going to make it different. 

Tanya Hale 12:58 

Because it's not about the move, it's about the the overall sense of connection in the relationship. Alright.So then where do you go? Like, we're struggling with all of this, figuring out how to connect, thinking, because I experienced this in my previous marriage as well, like I just kept getting the message that if we just have more sex, if we have better sex, like that will solve all the problems. And I was just like, that is not going to solve any problem. But I didn't know, I didn't know either what was going to solve the problems, right? 

Sione 13:27 

Right, and we were great roommates. We got along well together. Our kids didn't, we didn't, they didn't hear us arguing. I don't think any of them even knew there was a problem because they didn't have any other experience besides what we had shown them. And even when we got divorced, our friends and stuff from church were like, 'what? We had no idea there was even any problems with you guys. We thought you guys were doing great.' And even my family was like, wait, we were just on vacation with you guys a month ago and you're getting divorced? Like, we didn't even notice anything different. And maybe that's part of the problem is that they didn't notice anything different even after we had decided to get divorced. 

Sione 14:09 

So anyway, I went and talked with our Bishop and I was like, 'you know, we're great roommates. We don't argue. We don't fight. We're similar in a lot of our other things that we do. But the sex is just killing us. Like it's, it's really leading to a huge wedge in our relationship.' And so, you know, this is the Bishop lottery that we had, that we had a really great Bishop at the time who basically said, 'look, if you need to take care of things on your own to save the marriage, then that's more important than anything else.' And so, taking care of things on my own, I realized that it wasn't the orgasm that was the answer. Like it was still not fulfilling and I still felt disconnected in the marriage. And so that's when I started to realize that, oh, sex is not the problem. Sex is the symptom of the problem. And great sex would only happen once we felt connected to each other. So, sex is not the keystone of the connection, but I thought it was the keystone of connection and it's not. So, it wasn't the problem. It wasn't the solution either, which a lot of men are taught, right? Like see that in the movies a lot, they're fighting and then they have this great makeup sex and then suddenly, you know, marriage is great again for the next 20 years or so. But that's again, not, not how it works. And so... 

Tanya Hale 15:44 

Can I just interject? I think a piece that we've talked about that I always think is fascinating is this connection piece, right? Like you, in wanting to have sex, you were actually seeking for connection. You were seeking for that emotional connection, but you had been taught through your socialization that sex is what would bring that connection. 

Sione 16:07 

Well, and I think I also experienced that too, like after sex in that post-orgasm glow or whatever you want to call it. I did feel connected to her, but it didn't last. It wasn't a lasting connection. 

Tanya Hale 16:21 

And the question is, did she feel connected to you? 

Sione 16:23 

Oh, you'd have to ask her, but I'm gonna say no, there was zero connection. 

Tanya Hale 16:28 

Right. From my experience in my previous marriage there what I didn't feel a lot of connection after that. I oftentimes felt used. I felt, I would even say, a little bit abused, you know. 

Sione 16:39 

'Can we just go to sleep. Like, do we have to talk about it?' Like, yeah, there was none of this pillow talk connection afterward because there was no connection to begin with. Because again, sex was not a problem. Sex was just a symptom of the problem. 

Tanya Hale 16:53 

Nor was sex the solution, right? 

Sione 16:56 

Right, which is what I had been socialized to think would work. So by taking the orgasm out of the relationship, it took the pressure off both of us and, and it made it so that I realized, 'oh, I don't need to find that one thing that's going to fix it all.' And through getting my own therapist, as well as re-listening to old therapy sessions that I had recorded. Thanks, Jennifer. I needed to learn to emotionally connect in order for that orgasm to feel connecting. And the connection was required first. So just merely having sex with someone doesn't satisfy the emotional craving for connection. And what I realized was that I actually wanted the connection that can come with sex rather than just the sex and the orgasm. And that having that emotional connection would just create better, more intimate sex. And I did not realize that until after all of this other stuff started happening. 

Tanya Hale 18:05 

I think that's a huge and a super significant shift when we realize that the connection is what we're after and that the connection then creates better sexual experiences, rather than the other way around. 

Sione 18:20 

Yeah, and I think that sex can be a great experience, even without an emotional connection. I think that people who aren't, you know, the friends with benefits and the hookups or whatever can create an amazing sexual experience, but it doesn't lead to that lasting emotional connection, which is what I really wanted. And some people don't really want that.And that's okay, you know, they're the avoidant type attachment people, and that's okay that they don't want that. But for me, I really wanted that secure attachment that can come with a really secure emotional relationship. 

Tanya Hale 18:55 

And I think that's why a lot of us get married, thinking that that's what we're going to have. We just don't know how to create it. 

Sione 19:02 

Right, right. And it turns out just good sex is not the way to create it. 

Tanya Hale 19:08 

Turns out, it's also not just sitting and chatting for hours that's going to create that either. Sex has to also be a part of it. I think the two work in tandem, right, like we have to create both, but the emotional connection if that's what we're seeking for will not be found in sex alone. 

Sione 19:24 

Right, right. So after the divorce, when I started dating, fortunately I had learned all this before the divorce. And so I didn't really feel the need to break any of my temple covenants because I realized for me it wasn't going to be about the sex, but it was about the connecting. And I was able to really focus on building a relationship that had that emotional connection. And I was really looking for this authenticity and vulnerability in who I was dating. So if your profile had a doctored photo of any sort, I wasn't going to reach out to you. And if it seemed in your profile that you weren't really being authentic, then I wasn't going to even initiate a conversation with you. So that part was super important to me. And when I did date, I wasn't sleeping around or anything like that because I didn't want the physical connection without the emotional connection at the same time. And so I was really seeking that emotional connection first and then knowing that the sexual connection would be... Is it separate? I think of it as a separate thing that works together. Because you can have an emotional connection, but no sexual connection. You can have a sexual connection with no emotional connection, but I wanted both. And I thin bBecause I felt like I was missing that emotional connection that I really craved that I was seeking that emotional connection first in my dating relationships. 

Tanya Hale 21:13 

Good move, babe. 

Sione 21:19 

Yeah, this is tough stuff so thanks for lighting it up. Because it's hard to talk about these dysfunctional things that we did in the past that just, you look back and go 'what was going on in my head,' and then you realize you're just figuring it out and it's okay. 

Tanya Hale 21:36 

It's a vulnerable move for sure, so thanks for being vulnerable. 

Sione 21:39 

Yeah. So in our relationship, I really enjoyed, you know, connecting. And I knew that from our first conversation, which have we told them what our first conversation was. 

Tanya Hale 21:51 

I think I probably have, but it's been a while. You can share it if you want. It shines worse on me than it does on you. 

Sione 21:58 

I mean, I just did the initial like, 'oh, it looks like we have a lot in common, love the chat,' which was me trying to cast a net, right, to see who would, who would fall for that lure. 

Tanya Hale 22:12 

And surprisingly, I did. 

Sione 22:16 

Something triggered it in you and you went, 'yeah, what are your three biggest failures and three biggest successes in life?' And I'm like, okay, this is someone who wants to get connected emotionally first. And I'm like, okay, I'll bite on that. Let's see what happens. And so with us, I knew that that journey of connecting was going to happen long before the physical connection was ever going to connect. 

Tanya Hale 22:46 

Especially since we were long distance and we just, we couldn't have a physical connection for a large part of our dating. 

Sione 22:53 

Right, right. And since we've been married, I really enjoyed the process of connecting deeper emotionally and connecting deeper on a sexual level. It's been nice doing both in tandem. And I think they do help each other out, but I also think that you cannot have a super connected emotional relationship with your spouse without having a somewhat, at least somewhat connected sexual relationship or vice versa. 

Tanya Hale 23:24 

Well, that comes implicit when we talk about a marriage relationship. It is implicit that there will be emotional connection and physical connection. 

Sione 23:34 

Right. 

Tanya Hale 23:35 

You know, unless you as a couple have defined that as differently saying, 'well, listen, we're never going to have sex or we're only going to have sex.' Right. Unless it's been defined differently in the marriage, it's implicit that we are going to seek to become partners emotionally and we're going to have sex as well. 

Sione 23:56 

And that journey to get there, that's the important part for us. That's the most pleasurable part for us. It isn't necessarily reaching orgasm or having these long communication talks or whatever, but it's the feeling that comes from being on this journey together. So it's not reaching the mountaintop that is the important part of our journey. Not you having the world's the most amazing orgasm that makes you want to have sex with me again, or vice versa. It's just that we feel so connected to each other that makes us want to connect sexually too. 

Tanya Hale 24:35 

Yeah, for me it's that super safe space. That space that says I'm accepted and I am loved and I'm not judged and just this safety that says I am great just the way I am when I show up with you. That's it. That's a safe place to be. 

Sione 24:55 

Right. And so that means that every time, you know, I touch your shoulder or slap you on the butt, it's not a bid for sex, like, 'oh, great, he's going to want to have sex tonight,' right? It's just a playful banter that's part of the journey and not worrying about, well, is this trail going to lead to the top of the mountain sooner or later? You know, how's this journey going to look like? The journey is what becomes most important. So a lot of that playful stuff, really, because there's no pressure connected to it, makes it so we can just have fun with it and enjoy that part of the trail and not be like, ugh, this part of the  trail again, until we get to the top, you know, we just enjoy every step. 

Tanya Hale 25:43 

Yeah. And I think that that's such an important part in a marriage relationship, is really creating that friendship. And the friendship is that emotional space where I feel safe, where we play and have fun, where we assume best intent of each other rather than constantly, you know, assuming worst intent. 

Sione 26:09 

Yeah, well, and if one of us says, 'oh, I'm really tired tonight,' or 'I have a big something going on tomorrow and I'm just not really going to be able to show up sexually very well tonight,' the other one isn't like, 'oh, great, another night,' you know, it's like, 'oh, well, tell me what's going on tomorrow.' Or like, let's, let's talk about that part. 'Cause that's obviously more important tonight than us having sex, you know, and how can I then the focus shifts, right? How can I help you with that part? Or how can you help me with that part rather than disappointment in the lack of a sexual experience, even when one of us may have been hoping for that that night or that morning or whatever. 

Tanya Hale 26:54 

Yeah, so here's an interesting thought that I think we've talked about this in the past, but I'd love to hear your thoughts here. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has talked about before, about how men often desire and crave sex. They see themselves as the high desire partner, but they do so because they need that sexual connection to satisfy their own insecurities, to shore up their own sense of self. So this reflective sense of self that we've talked about before, that when they have a reflective sense of self, they are looking for the woman's sexual interaction to help them feel better. What are your thoughts on that? 

Sione 27:36 

Well, I mean, I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of vulnerability to enjoy a sexual experience with someone. So in order for a woman to have an orgasm, I think that she does need to have a certain amount of vulnerability and a certain amount of emotional, some sort of connection with the other person. And so if she has an orgasm and wants to have sex with me, then that absolutely validates me. And then the lack of that absolutely invalidates me. And I definitely think that that played a huge role in my thoughts and feelings about sexuality, was like, 'okay, if she comes first, if she has this world's greatest orgasm, right, then she's going to want to be with me and then I'm going to be validated.' So I think Jennifer hit it right on the head with that comment. 

Tanya Hale 28:40 

Yeah, she's pretty smart when it comes to sexuality and relationships, isn't she? 

Sione 28:45 

And in full disclosure, Jennifer was one of those two sex therapists we hired a long time ago. 

Tanya Hale 28:52 

Yeah, so anything else that you would say about men and sexuality and your journey of coming to a healthier sexual place? 

Sione 29:02 

Yeah, I realized that one of the things that was hard for me to understand was that if, like, if you say no to sex, it's not a reflection of me. It's a reflection of your emotional state, how you're feeling right then. And so rather than me getting upset and being like, 'ugh, another time,' it's like, 'oh, what's going on? How can I support you best?' You know? And so then it's like, 'oh, you're tired. Would you like a back rub? Will that help you sleep better?' Oh, you're, you know, whatever. 'You're stressed about this. Can I help?' And that assuming best intent that you are not rejecting your rejection of sex, my bid for sex is not rejecting me as a person. I think that that's really huge for men to understand because it then takes the pressure off of the sex itself. And then that's what allows your partner to have that safe space. I really think it's just critical for a woman and a man, for that matter, a partner to be able to say 'no' and not have the other person fly off the handle, whatever, like treat it as a personal attack. And that you don't love me anymore and things like that, because then that just blows the whole thing out of proportion. When that rejection of the sexual experience probably had almost nothing to do with the sex and had everything to do with something else going on, whether it's they don't feel safe with you or whether they have a something big going on in the morning or they're just exhausted from their day and know that it's not going to be, they're not going to be able to respond sexually. And so it's okay. Learning, giving your partner space to say 'no,' and not feel rejected by it, right? That's the work that you have to do and not feel rejected by it. That's going to be one of the most critical things that a man can do with the sexuality. 

Sione 29:26 

And then we've talked about this before, that older men are often the ones that stop having sex because they're uncomfortable with the changes that start happening in their bodies, the erectile dysfunction and taking longer to reach orgasm. All of those things are a natural process of aging for men. And so then if there's not good communication, then they're going to feel like they're less-than and be less willing to engage in that behavior with their partners. And that makes it also now difficult for the partners to understand like, 'are they rejecting me now? They haven't initiated sex in three months or six months' or whatever. And so the man is an anxiety ball over here about the fact that they're not reaching orgasm as quickly as they wanted to. Are they having trouble maintaining an erection. And the woman's over there going, 'why isn't he still attracted to me anymore? Maybe he doesn't love me,' blah, blah, blah. And it just leads to that dysfunction. But if you have a safe space in your relationship, say, 'Oh, I've started noticing that this natural process of aging started to happen to me too.' And just having that be a safe space. 

Tanya Hale 32:31 

I love that Jennifer, when she talks about that, she says that because women, because our sexuality is so much more volatile, so much more fluid and not so easily come by, it's always amazing to me that we can get engaged in a certain behavior and one night I'm like, "okay, that's brilliant, that's amazing." And two nights later I can be like, "okay, that's not doing anything for me at all." I think we as women are constantly having to deal with the fluctuations, the hormone changes, all of these things that happen with our bodies that we are used to having to renegotiate with ourselves in that way and having to go back and say, okay, well, that's not working, what's this? And we get more verbal about it because we kind of have to. And Jennifer says that because men don't generally have to do that, that when those changes start happening in their bodies, they are not used to the vulnerability necessary to work that out, communicating about it in a relationship. And so they oftentimes just back off and go, "okay, well, if I can't figure, you know, it's too much vulnerability for me to talk about it, so I'm just going to shut down and we're just not, I'm just not going to ever initiate sex, I'm going to avoid it." And so anyway, I thought that was a fascinating viewpoint and something that I'd never thought about until she brought that up. 

Sione 33:47 

Well, and we don't understand it either, your hormones and all that stuff. 

Tanya Hale 33:50 

We don't understand it. 

Sione 33:55 

This worked yesterday, you know, and it changes, so. 

Tanya Hale 33:59 

Well and I love this part of the conversation that just, it really comes down to this strong sense of self for both men and women. You know, if I notice, I know for women that strong sense of self is so valuable to be able to ask for what we want, communicate about what we want, all that kind of stuff. For men, I think a lot of times it's also about the courage to step into communication, into this connection piece, into not taking it personally when there is a 'no' or when there's a 'this is not a good time kind of situation.' Our sense of self is just so foundational to being able to have a good sexual relationship and a marriage as well, I think. 

Sione 34:44 

Well, when you have that strong sense of self, you can also say, 'okay, this isn't working out, but you want to have sex. Let's have, let's have sex and just enjoy the journey. And if I don't reach the top of the mountain and you do, that's okay.' You know, or vice versa. And it allows you all to explore different things, right? Because you feel safe saying, 'okay, this thing that worked 10,000 times is now not working anymore. What can we do about it?' Right? And you scoot your butts together and figure it out in a collaborative way, rather than you saying, 'okay, I've got to sort this out on my own and I'll let you know,' you know, or resorting to other forms of quick hit dopamine, you know, pornography and other things to reach that arousal state. So yeah, but if you're not willing to engage in that emotional and, and physical vulnerability, why marriage, right? So if there's some other motive for the two of you to stay married, like fine, you know, figure that out. But I think it's hard to say, yes, I want to be in a marriage relationship, not in a best buddies or roommates. If you don't want to have both physical and emotional intimacy with that person. That's what marriage is, is that physical, emotional intimacy. And if you're not willing to engage in those things, why, why are you still married? And that's an important question to ask yourself. 

Sione 36:20 

And you may have both of you may have great reasons like, 'oh yeah, we're still married because of X or Y.' And as long as you both are looking at that on the table together and going 'yep, okay, we agree with this,' then that's great. But if one of you is like, 'I just don't like that reason anymore,' then that's a great opportunity to really figure that out. I know it's tough, but you signed up for it, right? That's, that's part of what the marriage covenant is. And I think that there's a lot of discord, discontent, discord, this dysfunction, whatever dis-word you want to use in not living in alignment with your value, right? So you know that marriage is both this physical and emotional connection. And if for some reason you're not stepping forward emotionally very well, or you're not stepping forward physically very well, that's out of alignment for yourself, and you feel that. And even if you don't acknowledge it or you don't know what it is, it still feels out of sort. And so while I felt like, oh, our sexual connection is just out of sorts. I don't feel aligned with it. I think it was because I wasn't stepping into that emotional side of the relationship at all. I was terrible at that. And, so because of that, I felt out of sorts in my first marriage because I wasn't stepping into that part of the relationship and took a lot of therapy to figure out what was going on because I couldn't see it and other people could. So, you know, if it's just a business partnership, then make it a business partnership. But if it's a marriage, that's a different type of partnership that involves both. 

Tanya Hale 38:06 

Yup. Love it. Okay. Good discussion. 

Sione 38:11 

Yeah. We'll see what shows up in the comments. 

Tanya Hale 38:14 

Thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time and being willing to step into the vulnerability to have this conversation. I think it will help a lot of people to see things from a different point of view and to start looking at this connection piece. I think the biggest aha for me in this discussion is this space that you often used to think that sex would bring, that what you thought you wanted was the sex, but what you really wanted was the connection. You just thought that sex was the pathway to that connection. 

Sione 38:53 

I think it's because after reaching orgasm, I did feel connected for a certain amount of time. And I wanted that feeling all of the time. And so I thought that sex was the way to get there, not recognizing that if the emotional connection and the sexual connection are there, you can feel that way all the time. You can feel that connected all of the time. And so I think that's why I pursued the sexual side because that was, maybe that was easier? 

Tanya Hale 39:30 

Maybe easier, but also societally you'd been taught that that's what it's all about. So I think society has not done a lot of us a lot of favors in creating these really amazing, beautiful relationships that we want. 

Sione 39:46 

Yeah, and it wasn't about talking either so one of my favorite lines from one of the therapists we went to was, we were talking about communication and how we weren't communicating well with each other, and the therapist kind of chuckled and said "oh no, you're communicating really well with each other. Both of you were both of you know exactly what the other person is thinking, there's no miscommunication going on at all." And i thought oh that's a valid point. 

Tanya Hale 40:14 

It's the vulnerability piece, right? It's the being willing to step into the vulnerability and to allow for a safe space to be created between you. 

Sione 40:23 

Right, for either sexual connection, either for sexuality talk or an action or emotional talk or action. 

Tanya Hale 40:32 

So good stuff. Thanks, love. 

Sione 40:35 

You're welcome. 

Tanya Hale 40:36 

Okay. Alright. That's gonna do it for us today. Hope you found that helpful. I think it's a great discussion to have. 

Tanya Hale 40:42 

So, alright. If you would like to chat with me a little bit more in depth about any of this and get some insight and talk with me about coaching and what that might look like, you can go to tanyahale.com. You can click on the "free consultation" tab that you're gonna see up there at the top. You can get on my calendar and let's do some coaching and let's talk about about coaching and how it can help you move toward more the kind of relationship that you really really crave. I think that we can all individually do incredible work to change our relationships and I even do some couples coaching these days. With two people working together, it's just brilliant what we can accomplish. So, go to tanyahale.com, get signed up for that free consult and I will talk to you next time. Bye. 

Tanya Hale 41:35 

Thank you so much for joining me today. If you would love to receive some weekend motivation, be sure to sign up for my free "weekend win" Friday email: a short and quick message to help you have a better weekend and position yourself for a more productive week. Go to tanyahale.com to sign up and learn more about life coaching and how it can help you get to your best self ever. See ya.