00:00 

Hey there, welcome to Intentional Living with Tanya Hale. This is episode number 309, "What an Equal Relationship Looks Like." Welcome to your place for finding greater happiness through intentional growth, because we don't just fall into the life of our dreams...we choose to create it. This is Tanya Hale and I'm your host for Intentional Living. 

00:22 

Alright, hello there, my friends. Welcome to the podcast today. Just as always, so glad to have you here and I am so glad to be here as well. Just a little FYI, those couples coaching slots are full. So I'm kind of looking forward to figuring this piece out and being able to share couples coaching in the future. It's kind of an exciting new thing for me and I love the space that I'm moving into with my coaching and what I'm learning and what I'm understanding and the pieces that I am putting together that I just didn't have in my previous marriage. 

01:03 

So kind of funny, I was talking with someone some time ago, a man whose wife I had coached and he was like, "when she first told me she wanted to work with you, I wasn't very happy about it because why would you go to someone who's divorced for relationship coaching?" And then I've had the chance to meet with him many times and chat with him and he and his wife are one of the couples that I am working with at this point. And I just think, it's a good question, like why would somebody trust me with information on relationships when I have been divorced? 

01:40 

And I think because of my growth mindset and because of the learning that I have been seeking to do, I think I have a very unique perspective. Having been in a very dysfunctional relationship for 24 years and being able to understand the complexities of how it can be so dysfunctional and reasons why it can be so dysfunctional. And seeing things now that I engaged in, that I look back and I'm like, "ooh, that was really hurtful and destructive to my relationship". And now being able to be in a relationship where I'm able to do things very differently, I have a very clear understanding of how these things will fit together. And obviously I'm gonna have a whole lot more that I get to figure out as the years go by, but I love where I'm at and I love what I'm learning and I love what I get to share with you. 

02:31 

So that being said, today we're gonna be talking about what an equal relationship looks like. So this is another client that I was working with the other day and he asked me to give him an example of what it would look like to approach a conflict from equality rather than a one-up or one-down position. And I know that often when working with one-on-one with clients that we often identify their one-up or one-down thinking and behavior. And when I prompt them to identify what it would look like or sound like to approach it from a place of equality, very often I get the response like, "I don't know, I don't know what it would look like to be equal here." And honestly, that makes sense. Our brains are programmed to always be looking for ways to protect us to make sure that we are accepted, that we are part of the tribe, and also wanting things to be as clear and concise as possible. And part of this clarity is one-up or one-down thinking. It's a place where there is always someone to blame. Either I'm to blame or they're to blame. It draws some clear, linear lines that are easy for our brains to process. And grappling with the space in the middle can be difficult for our brains because often there is no one to blame. Life just does what it does sometimes, and it isn't anybody's fault. And our brains resist this ambiguity. 

03:50 

Trying to figure out how to step into equality can sometimes feel like this to our brains. It's a place that we haven't seen modeled very often, a place where there isn't always a clear or easy right or wrong, and a place that can take a lot more effort to achieve. And we know our primitive brain wants to conserve energy. It wants to avoid pain. So making a quick black and white decision about something is an obvious solution to our brain. Figuring out how to create a space in the middle is more difficult. And so our brain avoids it and realizing as well that most of the relationship modeling we have seen in our lives has not been equal partnerships being played out, but one-up and one-down behaviors all over the place. 

04:34 

So many of us were raised by parents who were born in the 40s. They were raised in the 50s and 60s. And all they saw were examples of one parent, often the male, who was in a definite one-up position, and the other parent, often the female, who was in a definite one-down position. Societally, that was how things worked. Women didn't have the legal right to get a credit card in their own name until the 1970s, which is my lifetime. This type of social conditioning created some very natural one-up and one-down thinking to occur. So when people talk about white male privilege, this is part of what they're trying to explain. That this group of people has very often always seen themselves in a one-up position because society created a space where they literally were one-up in almost every way. 

05:27 

And as a woman, I understood very clearly growing up in the 70s and 80s that I was less important than men and that my role as a woman was to make the man's life easier by serving and doing, by disappearing into the background, by making myself small, often at my own expense, right? And that's these were the conversations that we used to have about how in high school with my friends, if you're playing a game with boys, you never win because his ego can't handle it. We have to pretend like we're not as smart. We had conversations about we would never want to be the one to make more money than our husbands because that would make him feel bad, right? And I remember somebody gave me a book once about how if I had a jar that was difficult to open I was supposed to wait until my husband got home and asked him to open it because that would stroke his ego. 

06:22 

Like, isn't this just crazy that this is all stuff that I grew up with in the 70s and 80s, and I'm sure that you did too, but this place that says I have to make him bigger than me. And this is why I believe it can be so hard for us to break out of these patterns of behavior. They have been the air we have breathed since we were children and we saw these patterns being played out all around us. Our parents, our friends' parents, our young women leaders, our extended family, our church leaders, in TV and in movies. 

06:54 

And we still see so many of these unequal behaviors all around us. One of the very few TV portrayals, I don't know what to tell the TV, but one that I've seen lately that shows a couple mostly in an equal space has been in the show This Is Us. And if you're familiar with that show, it's Kevin and Beth. Such a great show, by the way, if you haven't watched it. Sione and I spent so much time crying when we watched that show. Even just talking about it gets me a little bit emotional. Just such a good portrayal of the complexities of life and a lot of the stuff that we talk about here. So really good. So This Is Us, if you haven't seen it. But here's the other thing: from the outside, an equal partnership would be boring to watch, which is why they don't do TV shows about it, right? Because there wouldn't be a lot of fighting and resisting and pushing against a lot of conflict. But from the inside, it's a nourishing and beautiful and safe and fulfilling place to be. So to help you understand better what equal partnership looks and sounds like I'm going to give you several examples today. 

08:00 

So let's start off with some basic guidelines for an equal relationship. We cannot be judge-y about the other person's viewpoints and opinions. If we're going to be equal, we have to really believe that we are equal. Meaning, they are a person whose preferences and perspectives are just as valid as ours. They get to like, want, dream about, and desire whatever they want, even if it's 100% not what we do. Being equal means we create a safe space for them to be very different than us. We don't get sarcastic or passive aggressive. We don't tease or mock, belittle, ridicule, or dismiss them, or anything that they put on the table. Whatever is put on the table, all ideas and opinions are taken seriously and are considered in our collaboration. You don't have to agree with all of the ideas and opinions, but you do get to try to understand them and treat them with respect. 

09:00 

Your goal in an equal partnership isn't to convince the other person of anything. It is to really seek to understand their point of view on whatever they put on the table. It's not a me-versus-you table, remember. It's an us-against-the-problem or against-the-issue table, scooching around the table till we're sitting cheek to cheek. Curiosity is a vital part of understanding what your partner wants and why. We cannot forget the "why." That's where the true understanding and deeper intimacy come in. And in getting curious, we aren't doing it in an attempt to gather enough facts so we can prove them wrong or to back them into a corner and make them feel foolish. It's so that we can truly understand them at a deeper and more intimate level. At the end of our quiet of our understanding quest, we will know them better than we knew them before and we will appreciate why they have the viewpoints they have. We also realize that our goal in relationship isn't for us to morph into a single entity with the same ideas and dreams. Our goal is to create a space for two very different individuals to love and care for each other, to know we are safe in all of our unique weirdness and even to know that we are loved all the more for the quirkiness that we bring to the table. 

10:24 

And last, this relationship allows us the amazing opportunity to learn how to become loving, kind, generous, and compassionate: the person we ultimately want to be. And that happens when we learn how to show up as an equal and to fully believe the other person to be our equal as well. So many of the one-up and one-down behaviors and thoughts originate from a deep seated belief that we are better than or less than others in some way. And not just thinking we are better or less than in skills and talents, in attitudes and beliefs, in perspectives and preferences, but at the core of who we are. We see inequality and we have to clean this thinking up. Becoming Christlike in the ways that we seek means we are seeing the value and the worth of every person beginning with those closest to us. 

11:19 

So here's an example of what equality would look like in a relationship. Let's say your husband wants to buy a fancy new car and you don't feel it's necessary. One-up or one-down would automatically go to defending your position, to working to point out all the reasons you are right and he is wrong. Notice the judgment about right and wrong. Notice the defensive stance right away. Both are indications that you are not coming at this from an equal positioning. Judging, defensiveness? Not an equal positioning. Equal, first of all, is going to believe that there is no right or wrong here, good or bad. Just different ideas. Your husband gets to want a fancy new vehicle. If he wants one, that's not right or wrong. And you get to not want a fancy new vehicle, but rather want money to put into retirement or maybe a house remodel or something. 

12:12 

So let's say you want let's say you want a section of your home remodeled, and he wants a new car. There's nothing morally right or wrong about either of those choices, and we have to acknowledge that each of you have your reasons for wanting what you want, and you get to spend your money however you choose. There's no moral police out there making decisions about how you choose your money. The problem comes when we jump into the judgment of their want and the defensiveness of what we want. The goal here is to see each of our wants as being valid and completely fine. 

12:49 

So we approach the conversation from a place of respect, honoring that the other person gets to want what they want and we get to figure out why they want it. We get to understand it, so we start with getting curious always, rather than treating them as less than and destroying their dreams from the start by telling them that that's ridiculous, and it's a waste of money. Let's begin by asking: "what is it about that particular car that they love so much? What would it mean to them to be able to drive it around? How would they feel if they owned it?" Let's feed the dream for a bit. I think our gut one-up positioning is to destroy the dream, thinking that we will put a quick end to the discussion. But let's explore the dream with them for a bit. Just as you have dreams, so do they. You don't have to have the same dream and you don't have to fully understand their dream. But at least try to understand it. Ask all the questions, work to feel their excitement and their vision. When you can understand their dream and step into it with them, they aren't going to feel defensive. They are going to feel as though it is a safe place to share their dreams, even if they know the dreams aren't yours. Or maybe even if they know the dreams aren't even realistic. You might be surprised by what you learn about your partner when you slow down enough to treat them as an equal who has his own dreams and desires. And this is our goal in relationship, to know them more deeply, to appreciate their point of view, to love their uniqueness, to accept that they are not the same as you and we still love them desperately. 

14:29 

Then in this conversation you also get to share your dreams, all the things that excite you about the remodel, why it's so important to you, how you anticipate it will make you feel and make your life better and make your home be. This is the place where we are each just putting our stuff on the table. We are really seeking to understand and know each other better. Notice the underlying message that each of our dreams and desires matter. That each of us matter the same. Nobody matters more. We don't try to shame each other for wanting to spend money on what we want. As humans, guess what? We get to want things. Let's learn to honor each other's wants rather than dismiss or demean them. 

15:15 

 So, once we get everything on the table, we get to start discussing from an equal place. Everything on the table is valid. You will both have reasons for why what you want is important. Equal means you also make space for what the other person wants being just as important. Part of that discussion is going to be, "if I want money in retirement instead of buying a new car, for me, part of that would be the safety and security of knowing that our future is better taken care of." That's an important part of the conversation. Being able to put those things on the table is part of what needs to happen. And then this is where the conversation starts. And this is the tone of the discussion where we want it to stay. If we start moving into name calling, even in our heads, we're moving into one-up. If we start thinking that maybe we're being selfish, we're moving into one-down. If we're thinking that they're being ridiculous, we're moving into one-up. If we're thinking that we will just back down to keep the peace so we don't have a fight, then we're one-downing ourselves, right? 

16:29 

Now, in this example, resources may not allow for either or both dreams at this time. But let's talk about all the options of how we could collaborate to move things in the direction of both of us getting what we want. Remember, cheek to cheek. Collaboration. It's not you against them, it's the two of you against the problem. What often happens in situations like this is that our one-up and one-down, normal, natural thinking starts manifesting itself in a huge way. And I just want to note that that doesn't necessarily mean it's a horrible thing, because if you're paying attention it can be good. It will start to show you where your individual work is. For example, if you find yourself feeling like you have to give in to keep the peace, good data, my friend. There is information there about an even more significant conversation that can be had. One where you use the own your own format to explore your thoughts about always being the one to give in. Which one may or may not be a true thought, but an honest conversation can help us to see it more clearly. 

17:44 

Maybe you find yourself getting heavy-handed and pushing hard for what you want in the conversation. Again, good data. There is information here about how you can see tendencies to go into one-up and treat your partner and their wants as less important than yours. Right, this is good information. Sometimes we just look away from it though and we don't turn our head to take a look at it. We let it lurk over there in the peripheral vision. But we have to turn our head and see these things because when we see how we're showing up as one-up or one-down, there's so much good information there. 

18:28 

So most likely, if you get into a big fight about whether to buy the car or to do a remodel, that's not actually what the fight is really about. It will most likely be centered on feelings of insecurity, on inferiority or superiority, on contempt, on feeling unseen or unheard. And these are the topics of conversation that will require some true vulnerability and equality. But they are conversations that can heal our relationships and move us into deeper intimacy when handled with care, with love and understanding, with honest to goodness seeking to truly know our partner and treat them well. We can disagree and still treat them with kindness, with respect. What creates the breakdown very often is that a decision is made where one or the other feels unseen and unheard, where we feel our thoughts and our feelings were not considered, where we were treated as less-than, where we felt like we were pushed aside and treated heavy-handedly. 

19:36 

And this happens to both partners in the relationship. Both people have a tendency to move in these arenas very often and it's not a gender issue. Some relationships are going to be more heavy on one side or the other. Okay, but it's not that men always do this or that women always do this. We all have our general tendencies to move in one-up and one-down positioning. So let me give you an example from Sione and myself from about a month or so ago. We had decided that we were going to go on a walk and only had about 30 minutes before someone was coming over to the house and I needed about five minutes or so to finish up what I was doing. So by the time I got downstairs he was looking up something on his computer and was really engrossed in finding the information he was looking for. And so I went into his office and I stood there and I waited and I waited. I didn't say anything. My one-down cultural lifetime of thinking had me believing that what he was doing was more important than our agreed upon walk, that it was more important than me and I shouldn't (notice the sh word) I shouldn't disturb him. 

20:52 

We did exchange a few bits of info, but he just kind of kept working. So when we only had about 10 minutes left, so I probably been standing there I don't know 12-15 minutes. He looked up and said something like "oh, okay now I'm ready," to which I replied something like "well, we're out of time because so -and-so is going to be here in a few minutes. And I was a little bit annoyed, but I was having a hard time identifying the feelings. And as we worked through it, I realized that I was feeling as though I was being dismissed by him. But here are the pieces as he and I sat down and talked about it. I was one down thinking, which kept me from interrupting him and saying "I'm ready to go." Okay, and because of his work as a surgeon, he has this amazing ability to focus and hone in on something, and he hadn't really even consciously connected that I was standing there even though we exchanged a few snippets of information. 

21:48 

Afterwards, as we discussed this situation, I realized my go-to one-down thinking where I was the one dismissing me. He wasn't dismissing me. I was dismissing myself, which is my work to do, which absolutely needs to be addressed by me. I have to stop dismissing myself and start stepping into being seen. And he realized that his capacity to focus in so tightly is really helpful at work and not so helpful at home. So we had a great discussion about it. It was loving, it was kind, and we both realized spaces that we could move better in. Equal partnership in this scenario would be me entering into the office, making sure I had his attention by touching his shoulder or something and saying, "hey, I'm ready to go," rather than just assuming that what he was doing was more important than our plans and silently standing there waiting. I wouldn't dismiss myself, but I would respectfully speak up for myself and make sure that I was seen and heard. 

23:00 

And it's not his job to make sure I do that. Equal means me stepping into believing that what I want and need is as valuable as what he wants and needs. Tell you what, lifetime societal conditioning in this area can be hard to recognize and difficult to break. But I'll tell you what, I'm working really hard on it. I'm noticing it more often. But sometimes it still takes a conversation between Sione and myself to be able to see that that's what I'm doing. 

23:36 

So, here's another space in our relationships that one-up and one-down show up. In our need to correct one another or to "help" one another. Whether it be word choice or inadvertently using the wrong word or wanting to step in and fix something. So, I don't really remember specifics at this point, but last week Sione was trying to open some packaging and I was standing right by him and he was having a tough time getting it open, and I had the strongest urge to just reach over and say "let me help you with this" and help him open this package. And I had to really work hard to hold back and not reach over and take over doing it. Right? My brain was saying that I could figure it out faster than he could. Notice the subtle one-up. Very subtle, right? Thinking that he needed my help, that I could do it better, that I could probably do it faster. I felt like I was literally physically having to hold myself back from reaching over to help. And he very shortly got the package open. So amazing that he's capable of doing that as an adult 55 year old man, right? 

24:49 

I noticed a similar scenario last week when we were at church and we were holding someone's baby. I had held the baby for a while and then I handed the baby off to Sione and every time while he was holding the baby that the baby squirmed or seemed uncomfortable or would start to make some uncomfortable noises or anything along those lines, I literally had to stop myself from reaching over to take the baby away. In fact, I started to move that direction several times. My one-up thinking that I could calm the baby better was so strong and I had to restrain myself multiple times. And guess what? The baby was just fine and Sione did a great job taking care of that baby and comforting the baby. But gosh darn it. I wanted to reach over. It's just amazing how that one-up thinking that "I can do this better, I can calm the baby," oh, it was just powerful. 

25:44 

So one-up thinking is the positioning with side seat driving. Telling the other person what to do or making comments about how the other person is cooking the food or cutting the onion or cleaning whatever thing they're cleaning. Right? Coming in and having comments about how they're doing their job. That's one-up thinking. Let's just keep our mouth shut if they don't ask for our opinion, for advice. Let's just keep our mouth shut. Giving unsolicited advice is one-up thinking. Now if you feel super strongly about it, then you can say "hey, would you be okay if I gave you a suggestion right now?" But guess what? They get to say "no" and then we get to keep our mouth shut. Alright? But just notice this one-up thinking. 

26:39 

So I will notice as well that when Sione slips up and uses the wrong word, as we all do at times, right? But so this happened just a few weeks ago as well. I knew exactly what he meant and I still will want to correct the word. Why do I do that? And I know that I'm not the only one that does this, right? Like, we all do it. But again, it's a very, very subtle one-up positioning that says, "you said that wrong, let me correct you," right? And it doesn't matter at all that they said it wrong because the meaning was completely clear. It's not like we need correction. But notice we oftentimes have this drive to do that, okay? 

27:24 

Kind of funny, last night Sione and I were on a Zoom call and the other person on the other side was having a hard time getting their audio to work and Sione like asked me a question, "well, did you did you do this button?" And then he goes, "of course you did. You do Zoom all the time. I don't know why I asked that." But notice just this natural tendency that we all have to move into trying to tell people how to do things. It's a one-up space, okay? Sarcasm and passive aggressive comments are also a form of one-upping. For example, if I were to say with a bit of snarky in my voice, "I'm gonna take the trash bins out to the road again," what I'm really saying is, "you're not doing your part. I'm doing more than you. You're behaving like a child because you're not stepping up and doing things that need to be done," right? Our thoughts are likely something like, "I really want him to step up and share more of the household chores." But instead of having an adult conversation about it, we take a biting, critical, backdoor approach to letting them know that we aren't happy. 

28:32 

Now, that can be coming from either a one-up or a one-down place. Either "you're a child and I can't have this conversation" or "you can't handle an adult conversation," which would both be one-up ideas or a one-down place that would sound like "I don't have a voice here. I can't say what I want or need." And so we use this backdoor passive aggressive way to get there. Equal partnership here would be having a conversation the same way you would with a person at work. It could sound like "I've noticed that I've been the only one taking the garbage bins out to the street the last few months and I would like for us to have a more equal partnership around this. What are some of your thoughts regarding this issue?" Right? Your partner is an equal. They deserve to be treated like an equal, not like an a child. And you are an equal and don't deserve to be treated by yourself like you matter less. Having an open and honest conversation that is not fraught with high emotion and accusation is an equal approach. 

29:37 

Let's do one more example. I often hear something along the lines of, "my husband just has so much going on right now at work and with his health that I don't want to add to his stress by telling him about the things that I'm struggling with right now. My thing seems so small compared to his." Okay, so I want you to ask yourself, is that a one-up or a one-down? Hmm. I'm gonna say that that's kind of a trick question because I see both there. First, the idea that I don't get an equal space to struggle and have someone to talk to is a one-down idea. The idea that my struggles aren't as big as his is a one-down thought, right? So second, the idea that he can't handle me sharing stress is a one-up. If I put one more thing on his plate, he's going to break, okay? That's a one-up thinking. So I think this one depends on what thought is behind the comment, okay? 

30:38 

So let's get clear on something with this. We don't share our stresses with our spouse so they will fix them, so they will pick them up and take care of them. And if that's the reason we are sharing, we need to stop. They are not responsible for fixing us or our problems. We are. They are not responsible for making us feel happy or unstressed or peaceful. We are. And conversely, we are not responsible for fixing them or their problems. When they share, when they put their stuff on the table, we get to acknowledge all the things. We get to express empathy. We can ask how we can best support them as they work through it, but we don't pick it up and try to fix it. And we are also not responsible for their feelings either. Whether they are happy or stressed or anxious, it is not our job to make them happy or reduce their stress. And just as your dreams and desires matter as much as your spouse's, so do your struggles and challenges. You are in a relationship to share these things, to learn to support one another. You putting yours on the table doesn't add to his because he doesn't have any responsibility over yours. It just gives him an opportunity to love and support you and to know you better. And him putting his on the table doesn't add to your responsibility at all because it is his to work through. 

32:19 

Now we also want to be clear that we're not putting it on the table to show that what we're going through is so much more difficult than what you're going through. We're not trying to one-up our struggles either. We are putting it on the table so that we can be seen. and known. We may have some cleaning up to do in these areas, whether it's because we are taking on our spouse's stuff or we are expecting them to take on ours. But if you got some cleaning up to do, let's get to work, my friends. Now, this is something that I refer to very often, and very lovingly, as staying in your own lane. When we step into someone else's lane to try and fix things and get things done the way that we want, we are in a one-up position every single time. When we expect the other person to come into our lane to fix us, to fix our problems or to fix our feelings, we are in a one-down position. Equal partners stay in their own lanes, but they also don't get dismissive and not care about the other person. I envision standing on the edge of our lane, facing theirs and supporting and encouraging and in loving them. "You go baby, I got you, so proud of you," like this kind of stuff, right? Or maybe like, oh sweetie, that is so hard. It is so hard. I'm so sorry you're going through that. What can I do to support you as you figure this out?" Those kinds of comments, right? Our spouse or other person may even ask us for a specific kind of support. And guess what? We get to decide if that falls in an area that we feel comfortable with and is appropriate or whether we feel that their asking crosses a boundary. We may say "yes" and we may say "no," but we are still loving and supportive and kind and not stepping into their lane. 

34:37 

Alright, so I hope that this discussion today helps to clarify how equal partners show up in relationships and gives you some ideas about how you can show up more equally in your relationships. So one last thing, even if your partner doesn't see or treat you like an equal, you absolutely get to show up as an equal and treat them as one. Dysfunctional partnerships are dancing in both one-up and one-down steps, and rarely if ever stepping into equality. When you choose to show up equal, regardless of how your partner shows up, the dance has to shift. What keeps the dysfunction going is when they respond one-up and you respond one-down, or you step into one-up and they respond one-down. That's what keeps the dysfunction circling around and around. If we want to stop this sort of dysfunction, just one of us showing up as an equal partner will stop that cycle. I just feel like we could talk about this for days and never cover it all. 

35:54 

If you want to talk about it for days, you can get on a free coaching call with me and we can see if coaching is going to be a good fit for you. Because if you are struggling seeing your one-up and one-down behaviors, if you are struggling understanding how to be an equal partner, this is something that I'm getting really good at coaching on and I can help you. Okay, this growing into this equal partnership is such a beautiful part of growing up into middle-age. I think at this point we have enough experiences and understanding and background knowledge that this is why there is so much growth available to us at this stage in our lives. 

36:37 

Okay, if you want to check out one of those 90 minute coaching sessions and consults about coaching, you can go to tanyahale.com. You can check out the free consultation tab at the top and if this information is great for you, I would love for you to share it. Just do something. Help people find this information. Okay, and if you have another podcast that you feel that I might be a great fit to be a guest speaker on, contact this other person and suggest me to them. I would love to have more opportunities to do that and I would also love to have more opportunities to speak at conferences and things like that. So if you have anything on your radar that you think that I would be a good fit for, get in contact with me. There is a "contact me" button on my website tanyahale.com as well. Okay, my friends, that's gonna do it. Hope you have an amazing, amazing week and I'm gonna see you next time. Bye. 

37:50 

Thank you so much for joining me today. If you would love to receive some weekend motivation, be sure to sign up for my free "weekend win" Friday email: a short and quick message to help you have a better weekend and position yourself for a more productive week. Go to tanyahale.com to sign up and learn more about life coaching and how it can help you get to your best self ever. See ya.